Thursday, May 24, 2012
When did it all begin? (Block A)
It's obvious that the downfall of Macbeth is clearly his own fault and that because he made a series of really dumb choices he ended up where he did (dead). However, there is a question that has been much debated over the course of time and since Shakespeare is no longer with us we will probably never get a definitive answer. That doesn't stop us from talking about it though! This weeks question is:
When do you think the idea of killing Duncan and the desire to become King popped into his head?
It has been said that Macbeth may have always had a desire to become King even before the witches met him.
What do you guys think? Remember to back up your ideas with proof from life and the book!!!
***Since this post was a day late (my fault) the close date will be Sunday February 24th 2010.
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Personally, i think that Macbeth always had at least a small desire to be king, it's only natural. Everyone craves power, its part of human nature, I'm sure at one time or another everyones wanted to be famous or the president or even rule the world. It all seems extremely glamourous and amazing.
ReplyDeletei think the only part the witches played in his downfall was to give him that "realistic" push towards the throne. They let him believe that it was possible, in his grasp even, so obviously he's going to go for it. Who wouldn't? They, nor any other character can be blamed for his own downfall, his actions made it happen.
I agree that it seems likely that Macbeth always craved power, but the idea of killing Duncan popped into his head only after the witches made him believe that it was possible.
DeleteThe witches, I think, were the main cause of Macbeth's disastrous decision. Not to say that they were at fault--that's all on Macbeth-- but without them, I don't think the idea would have ever occurred to Macbeth.
I disagree with you lexy, as Laura said, Macbeth probably wouldn't have had the idea of killing Duncan until the witches said he could become king. However, i do agree with your statement about him wanting to become king, because lets face it, we all have those hidden aspirations that may seem impossible.
DeleteI agree that everyone craves power, and the same goes for Macbeth. Whether he did always had the desire to be the king or not, I do think that he does have great desire and always craves for more power. Like you've said no one can be blamed for Macbeth's downfall. The witches were only giving negative thought, but it was Macbeth who made all the 'dumb' decisions, and acted impulsively.
DeleteWhenever there is an opportunity to have a great source of power, people will jump at it. The idea that Macbeth wanted to become king before the witches met him could be quite true. I think that the witches just confirmed that the idea of Macbeth becoming king is actually realistic and achievable. As for actually killing the king, I think was just on the fly. Macbeth knew that he could become king but it was just a matter of how to achieve the position. Also, the plan with killing Duncan was actually Lady Macbeth's idea, and Macbeth just went with it because he didn't want to look like a fool infront of his wife.
ReplyDeleteI agree with most of what you've said. There were a lot of factors in Macbeth's actual decision to kill Duncan.
DeleteHowever, I believe that Macbeth only had a the traits of violence and ambition before the witched met him, and no actual preset notions about what his future would be like. He even dismissed the witches and their prophecies as ridiculous before he learns he had been given Cawdor's title. It was only after they had been established as credible that he began to plot.
i definitely agree with you chris, i think he always wanted to be king. And i also agree with the fact that the witches only confirmed the fact that he could be king. Macbeth has always been too ambitious, it was shown all through the play.
DeleteSo naturally, I'm going to have to disagree with you laura...he definitely was violent in the beginning...it talks of him slicing people open during battle and how ruthless he is, and he really only dismisses it for a few minutes. After hearing the possibility of being king he clearly went power hungry.
I agree that Macbeth may have always had the inner desire to possess power, as the longing to be successful and dominant is simply a part of human nature. I also strongly agree that though becoming the King may have certainly been a goal Macbeth strived for many years, his ambition was not sparked until he met the witches. It was only when Macbeth met the witches, did the dream of becoming king take on reality. Meeting the "imperfect speakers" (I,iii) and hearing their prophecies gave Macbeth a push to begin reaching his aspiration.
DeleteBut, the altercation with the witches also served as the inciting incident for Macbeth's long road to failure and self destruction. It allowed Macbeth to realize it was indeed possible to seize the throne. However, the meeting with the witches also initiated a series of brutal killings. These murders enabled Macbeth to become the King, but they are also what led to Macbeths tragic death.
I think that Macbeth had in his mind the idea of ruling and also of killing Duncan. The witches just served as a sort of "excuse" to go through with the idea. No person just wakes up one morning to kill someone and become corrupt with the power he or she obtains. Macbeth's evil was a gradual thing. We don't know where the seed of the idea came from, but it isn't possible that he wasn't evil until he met the witches.
ReplyDeleteThe opportunity came into his life to take what he always wanted, so he went with it. It is as if a stove was leaking gas for years, but then the witches suddenly lit a match and made his entire ego and idea explode to kill Duncan and take the throne.
I like your example with the leaking stove, but keep in mind that the idea od killing Duncan was not Macbeths idea it was Lady M's, Macbeth just went along with it.
DeleteI disagree that the witches only served as an excuse to kill Duncan. Before Macbeth meets the witches, the audience has only heard positive remarks about him. He is described as valiant, brave, loyal, and Duncan even calls Macbeth a "worthy gentlemen."(I,ii) At this point, from what the audience has heard about Macbeth, he would be very unlikely to want to kill his cousin and king. But, after meeting the witches, his personality traits change significantly. As soon as Macbeth realizes the witches are truthful, as he is named the Thane of Cawdor, he wants to become king too. The witches trigger Macbeths ambition and give him hope that he can indeed become king. The witches strongly influence him to kill Duncan to seize the throne. Therefore, in my opinion, the meeting with the witches was not an excuse to kill Duncan, but instead, it triggered Macbeths desire to kill Duncan and become king.
DeleteI think that Macbeth had no desire to be king before the witches met him. In fact, the only line he has before he meets the witches is "So fair and foul a day I have not seen." (I, iii) Before that line, the only thing that is told to us about him is that he is a brave warrior.
ReplyDeleteI think the possibility of killing the king popped into his head as soon as he learned that he had been named Thane of Cawdor. Immediately after the witches' prophecy, he dismisses them as ridiculous: he says, "...to be King / Stands not withing the prospect of belief, no more than that of Cawdor." (I, iii) But as soon as Duncan's men come to Macbeth to tell him he has been given the lands of Cawdor, his thoughts are of murder: "...why do I yield to that suggestion / Whose horrid image doth unfix my hair...?" (I, iii)
It was the first suggestion that Macbeth might achieve greatness that gave him the idea to kill Duncan. It seems unlikely that he (or anyone else in real life) would make such elaborate plans before they even knew they had a chance at succeeding.
I strongly agree that Macbeths ambition to kill Duncan and become the King was only ignited when he met the witches. Though the reader can infer that Macbeth always wanted to be King, as human nature pushes us to strive for bigger and better, there is little evidence Shakespeare provides to back this up. Exactly like you have said, Macbeth only has one line before meeting the witches. Everything the audience knows about Macbeth beforehand is that he is a valiant, loyal, and honourable warrior, one that would be unlikely to kill his own cousin and king. However, as soon as Macbeth meets the witches, and finds out their prediction about becoming the Thane of Cawdor is true, the audience sees a new side to him. Immediately, Macbeth contemplates murder to fulfill his goal. The meeting with the witches is what gave Macbeth the idea and push to kill Duncan. The witches sparked Macbeth's ambition, the very trait that ultimately led to his death.
DeleteI believe that Macbeth did indeed want to be king before the witches told him his prophecy, like everyone else he wanted power. whether it's becoming the king, boss, or president everyone wants to be admired and looked up to. It was only when the witches told Macbeth his fate that he knew it could actually be possible. I dont think he wanted to kill Duncan though, he was going to let it play out and see what happens in the beginning. And it was only when he knew he had to do something to achieve his goal of becoming king. Although it was Lady M's idea to murder Duncan, Macbeth didnt refuse he went along and killed him for his needs and to make his wife happy. Once he decided to kill Duncan that was when everything started to fall apart. Lady M and the witches could be at blame for Macbeths downfall for putting such ideas in his headm but it could not have been possible without him. He was too weak to rise above and do the better thing.
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion Macbeth always had the idea of becoming king in the back of his head, lets face it, everybody wants to become king at some point in there life. Its only natural that people wanna be better than anyone at everything, the only thing separating one person from another is if they have the drive to do anything about it. But the idea of killing Duncan had popped into head either when the witches informed him about the prophecies, or when his wife had spoken to him about the prophecies. I feel that the witches are partially responsible because they told him that in his life he will become king, and like any sane human, he wanted that time to come sooner rather than later. His wife could have also forced the thought into his head with the very strange talk she with Macbeth in act one. Personally I feel that when after the witches told him the prophecies he had made up his mind on what he wanted to do.
ReplyDelete-Rafal
In my opinion Macbeth who was already a man of great power and greatly respected by the king and everyone, always had the urge to seek higher power it was in his blood. However he did not know how to attain it, when the witches gave him his prophecies it gave him hope that he will become king. Macbeths impatience and temptaions drew him to the end result of killing duncan.
ReplyDeleteMacbeth always had the desire to become king, however the idea of killing duncan was only given to him by lady macbeth. People do crazy things to achieve greatness....
I agree that Macbeth was already in a high position in his society and was able to get more power. I don't think his impatience caused him to kill the king though, the witches manipulated him into thinking that it was possible with a little bit of creativity.
DeleteI agree that Macbeth always had the desire to become king. However, I believe that the actual action or strive to become King had come from Lady Macbeth. After Macbeth had contacted the witches and learned he would become King, he didn't know when or how. The witches had pushed Macbeth's ambitions but it was Lady Macbeth who pushed him further and persuaded him into the murder of Duncan.
DeleteAt the beginning of this play, Shakespeare characterizes Macbeth as an honourable and admirable kinsman and subject of the king. Macbeth has fought extremely hard in a long and gruesome war. He has put his own life into jeopardy to fight for his king and his country. Duncan calls Macbeth his “valiant cousin [and] worthy gentleman” (I,ii). Thus, at this point, Macbeth is still loyal and trustworthy to Duncan. There is no evidence that he has intentions of killing Duncan to seize the throne. It is only when Macbeth encounters the witches in act 1, scene 2, does this change. When the witches tell Macbeth he will soon be the Thane of Cawdor and “he shall be king hereafter,” (I,iii) Macbeth is sceptical. He does not fully trust the witches. However, as soon as he receives word that he has indeed become the Thane of Cawdor, just as the withes promised, Macbeth puts his faith in the witches. He begins to contemplate ways to become the king, one of these ways to kill Duncan. Thus, this is when the initial idea of killing Duncan popped into Macbeth’s head.
ReplyDeleteThe witches acted as a negative influence upon Macbeth, giving him the initial thought of killing Duncan. They resembled a group of kids in high school. The kids with little interest in learning, the witches, influence a good student with high grades, Macbeth, to abandon his own traits and become devious and corrupted like them. Macbeth was a loyal subject before meeting the witches, and therefore, he would not want to take over the crown from his own cousin. But, meeting the witches changed this as they sparked Macbeth’s ambition. By giving him the prophecy, the witches sparked Macbeths desire to kill Duncan so he could fulfill the prophecy by becoming king.
In my opinion, there is no definite answer or proof to whether Macbeth always had the idea of becoming the king or not, but I do think that he has great desire, and he wanted to be more than the Thane of Glamis. All people want to achieve and have more power, and when the opportunity comes, most would do whatever they can to achieve their goals. As a tragic hero, Macbeth is a man with great honor and power, and with his relation to Duncan, it's hard to say that Macbeth does want to have some of those glory. The prophecy of the witches and the manipulation of Lady Macbeth are just impetus to make Macbeth to finally achieve his ambition. At first when Macbeth heard the prophecy, he was in suspicious of the witches, but he was somewhat interested in the prophecy they gave, which he demands to know more about it. Furthermore, after receiving the message of Macbeth being the Thane of Cawdor, Macbeth realizes that the prophecy may actually come true, he immediately thinks of killing Duncan. Macbeth may be a strong man, psychically, but in truth, I think he is very twisted and weak. Due to his desire and greed, he believed the prophecy completely, and acted impulsively throughout the play.
ReplyDeleteI agree with there was no definite knowing whether Macbeth wanted to be king or not and that everyone will jump at the opportunity to have more power. I disagree with the fact that Macbeth's ambition came from the witches, I think the witches gave him more of a curiosity instead. Macbeth then probed his curiosity to see how far he could achieve with it, then getting his ambition from that.
DeleteI think it is a possibility that the idea of killing Duncan was in his head previously to the meeting of the witches. This is because he didn't seem too awestruck when he came up with the idea. With that aside I'm sure he always wanted to become king, he was a noble and respected man, which he obviously tried to be. This in turn would be reason enough for one to believe that he may have always wanted to become king.
ReplyDeleteI disagree. I think that he did want to become king before the play starts, but the reason that he wasnt "awestruck" as you said was because during that time period killing people was not as big a deal as it was before. Too add onto that point, Macbeth had killed many people before, which shows further how little he would care about killing the king.
DeleteGood points both ways, but I think he didnt actually get the idea until the first dialogue between him and Lady MacBeth. In the previous scenes, MacBeth does state his desire to be king, but there isnt any of the guilty or violent signs he shows after the dialogue. He always had the desire to become more powerful, but he believed himself a good man until Lady Macbeth told him kill Duncan and position himself to take the crown. -Marley H
Deletei agree with dean, i think macbeth had had the idea to be kind before the witches. Like he said, Macbeth didn't seem too surprised or bothered by the prospect of being king and doing what he had to to get there. i think he might have just wanted to wait it out though, sit on the sidelines and let it play out, his wife ultimately pushed him to get going and kill the king. Id say after his first kill was when stuff slowly started to fall apart.
DeleteI agree with you Dean. That fact that Macbeth has always been involved with noble men such as the King may have brought up the idea of power. For example, being around many successful buisness men may bring up the thought of being as powerful (or ever more powerful) as them. It's natural to be competitive (it's part of nature) and that Macbeth has always had the desire to become King
DeleteThe exact moment of when Macbeth came to thought about the desire to become King and kill Duncan is at one's own judgement. However, most often people crave power naturally as to fulfill the desire of achievement. For example, in today's society, an employee of a major company most likely looks up to the head of the department or even the CEO. The job of a bigger, more meaningful title is often desired. In Macbeth, Shakespeare shows this relationship to our current society. Macbeth is honoured to be crowed Thane of Cawdor. However, the position of being Thane wasn't great enough in that he strived to become King much like the witches had suggested. I come to believe that Macbeth had craved the title of becoming King after he had achieved his position as Thane.
ReplyDeleteMacbeth came to thought about killing Duncan, in my own judgement, the second he had come in contact with his wife. The idea of becoming King had been in his head since becoming Thane of Cawdor, however the actual situation in which he would become King had not yet been solved.
The idea of actually killing Duncan may have occurred when he had the desire to become King. The only way he could achieve being King would be lead after the death of Duncan, as it is quiet obvious there would be no other way. Macbeth's idea of becoming King had all began once had was titled Thane of Cawdor.
The moment the idea of becoming king enter Macbeth's mind was after Ross and Angus brought news of him becoming the new Thane of Cawdor. Macbeth speaks to himself stating "two truths are told, As happy prologues to the swelling act Of the Imperial theme"(I,iii). This quote is stating that two of three predictions have came true, which means he is going to become king.
ReplyDeleteMacbeth's desire to become king doesn't come free. He immediately has thoughts of horror running through his mind. "This supernatural soliciting Cannot be ill, cannot be good"(I,iii). Macbeth suspects that the prophecy sounds too good to be true. The terrible ideas come across his mind after thinking of the possible downsides. Macbeth questions himself by saying "If good, why do I yield to that suggestion Whose horrid image doth unfix my hair Against the use of nature?"(I,iii). He is questioning that if this prophecy is so great then why does he keep thinking of such horrible thoughts. Those thoughts can include the lengths he must take to become king such as, murdering the king.
The urge to murder and cause harm becomes an official step to become king when Duncan announces Malcom as future king. Macbeth states "The Prince of Cumberland! That is a step On which I must fall down, or else overleap, Let not light see my black and deep desires"(I,iv). Murder becomes essential to Macbeth's plan of becoming king is confirmed during this scene.
I agree that the moment for Macbeth wanting to become the king occurs when Ross Angus brought the message to Macbeth. At first, Macbeth did not trust the witches' prophecy, but when he is the Thane of Cawdor, it has proven that the prophecy might actually be real. Macbeth was described to be a brave and honorable man, with great wealth and power. It's natural for him to crave for more power, since humans always want to receive more what they already have. However, like you've said, Macbeth did thought of the consequences before (once). Like most people, anyone would feel scared and guilty for doing anything that is against their conscience. However, after Duncan's death, Macbeth did not think of those consequences anymore. Whether Macbeth did want to become the king or not, but yes, it has been confirmed that he does after hearing the prophecy and having the thought that he must kill Duncan in order to achieve it.
DeleteIn my opinion, Macbeth first got the idea to kill Duncan shortly after the witches told him he would become king. I think it took him some time to realize he would need to kill the king. The letter that was send to Lady Macbeth was presumably written that night, which shows he put some thought into it. Although some people argue that he would have thought about it before the witches, it would seem reasonable that that is false, because Macbeth was not very powerful until he became the thane of Cawdor. He would not have had very much contact with the king before then.
ReplyDeleteHe may have written the letter that night, but it never explicitly reveals his intention, just his hope that he himself may actually become king. If he had the goal of disposing of the king, why wouldn't we have heard of any plans prior to killing Duncan while he stayed for the banquet? If he had intended to do so, he would have already started taking steps towards making it happen. As I explained in an earlier reply, I think that he didnt actually think he would need to kill Duncan until he talked to Lady MacBeth, although he realised that something would have to be done about the current heirs, Duncan's sons. -Marley H
DeleteI do agree to your idea that Macbeth had thought about killing the King while writing the letter, however I do believe that Macbeth would have some sort of thought of becoming/craving to become King. People tend to crave power, much like my previous example of an employee craving a higher title. As humans we crave success, and I believe the moment Macbeth was crowned Thane of Cawdor he immedietly thought he could strive to become King
Delete