Thursday, May 24, 2012
When did it all begin? (Block B)
It's obvious that the downfall of Macbeth is clearly his own fault and that because he made a series of really dumb choices he ended up where he did (dead). However, there is a question that has been much debated over the course of time and since Shakespeare is no longer with us we will probably never get a definitive answer. That doesn't stop us from talking about it though! This weeks question is:
When do you think the idea of killing Duncan and the desire to become King popped into his head?
It has been said that Macbeth may have always had a desire to become King even before the witches met him.
What do you guys think? Remember to back up your ideas with proof from life and the book!!!
***Since this post was a day late (my fault) the close date will be Sunday February 24th 2010.
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I believe Macbeth's desire to kill the Duncan came before he even knew he was to become king. Even though originally, when he was told that he would become the Thane of Cawdor by the three witches he didn't believe them. He even goes as far to ask if him and Banquo were high. But once the messenger comes and informs Macbeth that he has become the Thane of Cawdor. Everything comes to light for him, he thinks he will become King. He writes a letter to Lady Macbeth explaining the whole situation. And her response to the letter is to climb up a tower in her castle and yell and scream about becoming a man so that she may feel nothing and it hints that they wish to kill the king. When no where in the letter does Macbeth give any indication of wanting or planning to do so. So it only makes sense that Lady Macbeth and Macbeth had already been planning it prior to this event.
ReplyDeleteBut there is no evidence that he had intentions of killing Duncan before the witches met him.
ReplyDeleteTo me he seemed like he was content at being the Thane, and only the Thane. He was a war buff, the glory and recognition was all he needed and wanted. To me he was content at being a war hero and the Thane with a beautiful wife.
Even when the witch's first prophecy came true, Macbeth said that this is strange and all, but I don't want to hurt anybody.
And when his wife pushed him to kill the king, he didn't want to. He wanted to leave it to fate and luck! He had no wishes to hurt anybody in the beginning, I think he was content at being loyal to the king. It wasn't until when Lady Macbeth was telling him he deserved more when thoughts of murder really settled in.
And the letter was just letting his wife know what has happened because she was his other half and she deserved to know, to him. It was Lady Macbeth who first thought of murder, and Macbeth turned her away initially
I disagree, there may be no direct evidence presented to us. However why is it that once Lady Macbeth received the letter from Macbeth she immediately went about that long speech. About how she wished to become a man, and to lose all emotional ties. How they were capable of coming up with a plan within a days time, and put that plan into action. It had to have planned ahead of time, or they would have had to talk about it at the very least. I mean right after Macbeth came home, there wouldn't have been enough time to come up with a plan like the one they had. The King arrived almost immediately after, and they had to set up the castle for the banquet too! I think the whole idea had already been talked about. Its not that he didn't want to kill the king its that he didn't have the courage to do it himself. Right after he discovers that Malcolm has become the prince of Cumberland he talks about how the stars should hide their fires and not look at his hearts dark and deep desires. How the eye shouldn't see what his hand was to do, or something along those lines. Those were his own thoughts, and he wasn't with Lady Macbeth.
Deletebut layla there is no way that a women in that time period would have told her husband to kill his cousin. this means that macbeth would have had to bring it up with lady macbeth and beacuase we never had a scene where macbeth discussed killing duncan without lady macbeth knowing means they planned the murder long before the play started
DeleteMaybe Lady Macbeth is just crazy?
DeleteI mean she definitely lusts for power. Everyone does!
Maybe Macbeth wanted to be King, I'm sure anybody does. But I don't think they had gone as far as to plan the murder already
I agree with Layla. There is no evidence that Macbeth planned to be king before, from what I have interpreted, nor has this desire really been mentioned earlier than Act One, Scene Three, when he meets the witches and hears their prophecy. Perhaps, deep down, he had a desire to be the most powerful man in Scotland, but it does not appear that he had put much thought into it before then. At least, not until he thought that there was a big chance that he could be King.
DeleteThe way I always thought of it was that the witches planted a little evil seed in Macbeth’s mind, which, in the right conditions, grew and flourished. I don’t think that the seed was there before the hags opened their nasty mouths.
Near the end of Act One, Scene Three, Macbeth says:
“If good, why do I yield to that suggestion
Whose horrid image doth unfix my hair
And make my seated heart knock at my ribs,
Against the use of nature? Present fears
Are less than horrible imaginings
My thought, whose murder yet is but fantastical,
Shakes so my single state of man.”
He is speaking of how the idea of Duncan’s murder is creeping into his mind. Had those thoughts been present before, would he truly be so horrified by the very idea of them?
Tessa, I disagree. I don't think it was the witches that planted the idea in Macbeth's mind. All they did was make his ambition and desire to be King a lot stronger than it originally was. Sure, his desire to be King was very small before he met the witches, but it was still there. You even said so yourself that "he had a desire to be the most powerful man in Scotland" and the most powerful man in Scotland is the King.
DeleteHaley,
DeleteYes, I did mention that he may have wanted to become King before hearing the witches, or at least wanted to be more powerful. However, Mr. O asked the question: "When do you think the idea of killing Duncan and the desire to become King popped into his head?"
What I'm saying is that maybe Macbeth thought from time to time that it would be neat to be powerful, and king. However, I don't think that he had the idea to kill Duncan. Anyways, I did not say that he absolutely had a desire to be the most powerful man in Scotland, I simply said that he may have entertained the notion from time to time. At any rate, it is absolute that he started thinking about killing Duncan and becoming king after hearing the witches; there is no evidence that I can see that he ever thought about killing Duncan to take his crown before then.
Tessa,
DeleteI know that Mr. O's question was, "When do you think the idea of killing Duncan and the desire to become King popped into his head?" but he never said that his decision to kill Duncan and his desire to become King happened at the same time. I think that in order for him to decide to kill Duncan he needs to first have the desire to be King. I agree with you that he hadn't thought about killing Duncan before he talked to the witches, however, I do think that Macbeth had the desire to be King before he met the witches.
Haley,
DeleteI can agree with you to that extent, then. I think that we, as humans, always want stuff that we can't have, and tend to fantasize about what we want, even if we know it's impractical.
Say, hypothetically, I want to become Prime Minister (a ridiculous example, I know, but it'll do.) I might think, in passing "oh, it might be neat to be Prime Minister." However, that doesn't mean that I have a plan in my head, which involves assassinating our current Prime Minister and rigging the voting system so that I can be the first sixteen-year-old girl in history to be elected as the leader of our country. That would be absolutely ridiculous.
Similarily, perhaps Macbeth entertained the idea of being King from time to time. However, when the thought appeared, he could have thought "that's ridiculous; Duncan is King, that would never happen. I think I'm happy to be as I am." But once he was told that he was destined to be King by the witches? Well, that was a different story entirely!
Tessa makes an excellent point. Just because you think something doesn't mean you actually want to do it. I for one sometimes wonder "would it be nice for that person I hate to be hit by a baseball bat?" However, just because I think this, it doesn't mean I'm to get my crappy 12 inch steel bat and assult the guy in a dark allyway and take all his money, or hire a hitman to "feed him to the fishes". It's simply a thought that runs through your head. A lot of people assume the worst when people have something you really want but would take it to their grave.
Deletebut it still comes back to the point if lady macbeth and macbeth diddn't decide to murder duncan untill after macbeth became thane of cawdor than how did they plan the murder when lady macbeth got the letter telling her about the king was coming for dinner. Macbeth then came home in under twenty minutes after the letter got there so how did they plan the murder in that short amount of time if this WAS the first time they had ever talked about the murder of duncan.
DeleteThank you Tessa.
DeleteI agree that the hags planted the seed in Macbeth's mind, and there it grew.
If he had in fact been planning to murder Duncan all along why was he so hesitant and guilt ridden afterwards? What made that different from the hundreds of men he has already killed? Duncan would have been just another man standing in his way, nothing more.
Who doesn't want to be in a place of power? Hell, I would love to be the president. But does that mean that I'm going to plan to murder him? Of course not!
Everyone day dreams and fantasizes about power, and I'm sure Macbeth was just the same. However, I don't think he gave it much thought.
I think the desire to become king has always been there. As a tragic hero, Macbeth comes from a place of power. He is regarded as a skilled, valiant soldier and is exposed to love and praise from the people. Macbeth has a personal relationship with the King and must have wanted some of that glory at some point. Also, Macbeth is ambitious and seeing that his cousin having all the power might make anyone jealous. I believe Macbeth has thought about getting rid of Duncan in some way because after the witches’ prophecy, Macbeth immediately jumps to murder. After being given the title Thane of Cawdor and ensuring the prophecy is truth, Macbeth says to himself that ‘present fears are less than horrible imaginings’ (I.iii). It suggests that Macbeth has thought about murdering Duncan before and now that he believes the throne will become his, Macbeth actually contemplating murder. His response was quick and he did not ponder over other possibilities. I think that the desire only became stronger than before after hearing the prophecy and believing it to come true. It seems as though since the prophecy guaranteed him the throne, Macbeth feels he is finally allowed to act on his desires with no fear of the consequences.
ReplyDeleteEXACTLY! He's regarded as the most skilled and is even compared to as "Valour's minion". He is beloved and known to all of Scotland, renown as "Brave" Macbeth. He comes from power, the thought of becoming King had to have jumped into his mind at once place or another. Also the witches told him he'd become king, but they didnt say WHEN, but he immediately like you said jumped to murder and jumped to that idea almost immediately. I believe Macbeth had that idea in his head for ages, but didn't possess the ego to act upon it. Yes, Lady Macbeth had to pursue the subject and push Macbeth until he agreed. But it was already something Macbeth had thought about, thats why he didn't have to use any time to contemplate it.
DeleteYes, Zoey, most of us have the desire to be the leader of something great, to be on the top, to be giving orders not taking them. However, the question states not if he had the desire to be King, but when he had the desire to kill Duncan. Macbeth has shown massive amounts of hesitation for someone who's wife was manipulative towards the deed. In fact, all of Act 1 scene 7 show this. This shows that although he wanted to be King, he didn't want to kill Duncan to achieve it. As for your point of Macbeth saying "present fears are less than horrible imaginings", he says the word "horrible" for a reason, because he is generally against the deed, and he believes that killing Duncan would be horrible.
DeleteActually, the question asks whether he had previously thought about killing Duncan and if he desired to be king before encountering the witches. In act 1 scene 3, murder is the first thing that pops into his head as he tries to reason out a solution to get rid of Duncan. The idea of murder is his mind ‘shakes so [his] single state of man that function is smothered in surprise’ (I.iii). He cannot act normally because his mind is so consumed with murder even though he believes the idea is repelling. I don’t think he would have so readily thought of murder if he didn’t think of it before and his desire to be king caused him to even consider murder. I believe that Macbeth believes the act itself is horrible, but his desire for the throne outweighs all else.
DeleteFor your quote, it is very faint evidence. In the time of Macbeth, everything REVOVLED around killing and death. People were swayed to kill others constantly in wars out of 'loyalty" to their country. Even Macbeth, is given so much praise about slaughtering several people, even rebels (who were probably oppressed thus them rebeling). Also, to be king when the current king has TWO sons, all the people in between said person and royalty is to be removed (death). Yes, murder did pop into Macbeth's head when the witches prophecy seemed very plausible, however, this probably was out of logic, not because he thought of this before, because he saw that there were two people to take his place if Duncan got removed (for any reason).It was only after the manipulation of Macbeth by Lady Macbeth did he do the deed, and only after much hesitation and guilt.
DeleteAlthough you are right about the question (sorry about that), regardless I do believe that I am right for the reasons shown.
Yes, but Macbeth is an extremely ambitious man. He has a personal relationship with the king which must have caused him to wonder what it would be like to be king. This could have become some kind of goal for Macbeth. And, like you said, murder and death was common in that time. His strong desire to be king led him to consider murdering his cousin as that was the usual succession of the royal line. Even though Duncan had two sons, Macbeth could have easily thought about killing Duncan before he had his sons. The prophecy allowed him to stray back to the idea of murder, but also with the knowledge that he would become king either way.
Deletehe was shaken to the core at the thought of murdering the king!
DeleteJust because someone has idly given an impossible senecio a thought, doesn't mean it was all done and final in his mind.
If we are to judge a person on their idle thoughts and day dreams, then boy we are all in deep trouble.
Just because he may have entertained the thought once in his life didn't mean it was going to happen.
You can think of something, and not actually do it you know.
And even when lady Macbeth got the letter, she was shocked at what it said. She asked the evil spirits to unsex her BECAUSE she planned to do it herself. So she could become a man and carry out the deed.
If Macbeth and his wife truly conspired to kill the king, then it would have already been decide that Macbeth was going to be the murderer, and lady macbeth wouldn't need any unsexing.
Macbeth was already a Thane, a war hero, had a beautiful wife, and was loyal to the king. He had everything he needed and wanted, he wouldn't plan to kill for more
Very early in the play Macbeth is established as a hero and an honourable warrior. The people know him as "brave Macbeth" (I.ii)and the king knows him as his "valiant cousin" (I.ii). Macbeth is an excellent fighter and brings a good name to his country and himself and I believe that it is because he wants to become king. If someone tries so hard to be so good at something, it must be because they want something in return. Macbeth wants to be recognized and rewarded for his actions, and I think that he believed that if he was a valiant and honourable warrior, he might one day be crowned king.
ReplyDeleteAlthough he wants to be crowned king, I don't believe he wanted to receive that title by murdering Duncan. I think that he wanted to earn the title of king and that's why he was such a great soldier. He wanted his achievements and efforts to bring him the title. I don't think his thoughts about gaining the title were ever homicidal, even after he received his prophecy. The witches told him that he would become king, but he believed it would be because of his efforts and achievements. He even said so himself that "If chance may have me King why, chance may crown me without my stir" (I.iii) to Banquo after they had talked with the witches. I believe that Macbeth never had the intention of killing Banquo until Lady Macbeth planted the idea in his mind. Once the idea was in his head and his ambition to become King was strengthened by the witches, murder seemed like the only option for Macbeth.
i agree with you that Macbeth already has the desire to become king before meeting the witches. However, i disagree with you that Macbeth doesn't want to kill the king. Personally, i believe that Macbeth already possess the idea of murdering Duncan. Because when Macbeth heard the prophecy and become the Thane of Cawder, he immediately though of murdering. But, this idea revolted him and he end up give trust on chance. Yet, when he heard the King announcing his son will take his seat after his death. His anger evoked into the idea of murdering. I feel that the witches and Lady Macbeth only plays the role to help Macbeth confirm his ambition.
DeleteI agree to most of the points, but also disagree with some points. I believe that Macbeth do crave for power long before he met the witches, and so does Lady Macbeth. However, I believe that Lady Macbeth have a greater part than the witches to influence Macbeth, whether or not she/they plant the idea of murder into his head. In the beginning when Macbeth is still conscientious of his action and thoughts, we can see that he turned away Lady Macbeth’s plan of murder the first time. However, he did thought of murder as one of the possibilities to get himself the crown with the thought “whose murder yet is but fantastical” (I,iii). That was the first time idea of murder pops into his head, but I’d say that Lady Macbeth is the one who really convinced him into the act. The other factors is perhaps Macbeth is jealous and full of ambition after meeting the King in Act 3, so he thought of murder right after he heard that Malcolm is the Prince of Cumberland.
DeleteI think that macbeth had wanted to be king long before he met the witches beacause macbeth and lady macbeth had already known what to do when macbeth became thane of cawdor there was no thought about it or disscussion it was just i'm thane lets kill the king and even though there is a moment where macbeth thinks that he diddn't want to kill duncan he still did it which means to me that he had already had doubts about killing duncan already which means he had already planned it.
ReplyDeleteI completely agree with this statement. I have already said it on one of the questions and I will say it again, that I believe Macbeth and Lady Macbeth had already planned out the murder of Duncan ahead of time. In the play, right when they find out that he is to become the king and is the thane of Cawdor they already have the plan devised and don't have to discuss it at all.
DeleteI agree with the part where he had wanted to be a king before he met the witches, but I don't think he planned to kill the king before. He was still debating with himself and his wife after he heard from the witches. Although he was thinking it over and over again in his mind but he never want to betrayed the king, and after he killed the king he was in guilt that last for a long while. I still think that he wants to become a king a while before he met the witches, but he never wanted to kill the king to become one
DeleteI agree with Hank’s point. I believe the thought of being king was planted long before he met the witches. However, he hasn’t thought of murder Duncan at that moment yet. The best prove is that before Macbeth in under manipulation of Lady Macbeth, he still serves the king loyally. In addition, the fact that he is a character full of self-doubt about the murder, I don’t believe he plotted the murder before he met the witches even though he did thought of murder as one of the options to reach his crown. If Macbeth have plotted the murder since the day he wants to be King, then he should have be capable of overcoming the guilt of murder, since he is so determined to become the king with all his ambition.
DeleteExcept that's not what happened at all...
DeleteThere was much discussion.
First the letter was sent, and even before then macbeth dreaded the fact of killing the king, he pushed it out of his mind. And then I think you ALL have forgotten that it was LADY Macbeth that was scheming once she got the letter. SHE was the one who asked for help from dark spirits and planned on killing the king herself.
If Macbeth has a,ready planned something with her, she wouldn't have asked for help because it would have been Macbeth who was doing the killing.
So, maybe we are pointing out fingers at the wrong person. Perhaps it was Lady Macbeth?
I do not believe that Macbeth had any desire to kill Duncan before the prophecy of the three witches. There is no proof or hint that he thought of this before, besides Dion's point of how Lady Macbeth was so excited that she screamed at the sky like a crazy person asking demons to unsex her, however, we all know that the Macbeths were very ambitious, which is where I think all that came from. From the very start of when the prophecy showed credibility, Macbeth said "If chance will have me King, Why, chance will crown me" which shows hesitation and that he would like to leave it to chance (i, iii). Even after the pestering of the ambitious and manipulative Lady Mabeth, he still didn't want to go through with it. This shows that Macbeth, even after the prophecy, didn't have a huge desire to kill Duncan, thus I find it improbable that Macbeth had planned this out before the prophecy showed credibility.
ReplyDeleteI believe Macbeth had desire to become king before he met the withces. People are often greedy. And since Macbeth was already in place of power, Thane of Cowdor, and had earned many praises from others, it is likely for Macbeth to desire more. Also, seeing that his cousin, Ducan, and himself were both on the same level as they earned the respect of all people in Scottland, Macbeth may wonder why his cousin is king and he is only a worthy thane. The witches prophecies were just a confirmation for Macbeth, that makes him believe more that he deserved/was going to become King.
ReplyDeleteI agree your idea that Macbeth had desire to become
Deleteking before he met the witches. I personally feel that Macbeth already possess the plan of killing Duncan. For me, i say this is because Macbeth has a great possibility to become king because he was blood related to King Duncan. However, in order to gain that status, something must happened to the current King. Also, when he first met the witches and got the thane of Cawder, he immediately thought of murder, which shows that he already has in mind of becoming the King.
I agree with you too. Macbeth must have thought that he deserved to become king before he met the witches because he was blood-related to the king too. This meant he was part of the royal family. However, unlike Duncan becoming a king, he was only a worthy thane. He must be very envious of Duncan and desired to become the king to obtain the same fame, respect, and wealth as Duncan. I think the witches’ prophecies were a wakeup call of Macbeth’s ambition rather than confirmations of his desire. Because if the prophecies were confirmations then the book should show Macbeth’s ambition of wanting to become the king before he met the witches, rather than being so excited and discussing this with Banquo. He would be very careful of speaking of his ambition with others. Therefore, Macbeth just remembered his desire and because it grew stronger from before, he had instantly thought of murdering Duncan.
DeleteTo be honest, I don't think the idea of killing Duncan exists before he met the witches. Yes, he has desire to become King, but it is possible that he never thought of murdering the current king as one of the ways to obtain the crown. Yes, his first thought is about murdering King Dunca after the witches' first prophecy (that Macbeth will be Thane of Cawdor) has come true. However, he claims that the idea of murdering is a "horrid image [that] unfix [his] hair and make [his]seated heart knock at [his] ribs" (I,iii). Clearly, Macbeth is only yielding to this suggestion right after he has contact with the Weird Sisters. "[His] thought, whose murder yet is but fantastical, shakes so [his] single state of man" means that even though the thought of committing murder is just a fantasy so far, it shakes him up so much that he hardly know who he is (I,iii). The kep sentence --> he hardly know who he is, shows that he never considered of killing his noble cousin. The thought just suddenly pops into his head when he is told that there is possibility for him to become King, in which he has always desired.
DeleteI believe before Macbeth meets the witches, he has the desire to become king because he has a lot of people support him and is both Thane of Cawdor and Glamias, but however he is not sure how and when is he going to be king. At that moment, he does not have the idea of killing King Duncan to get the throne.
ReplyDeleteAfter he meets witches, the downfall begins to start. Because of first two prophecies come true, Macbeth doubts what the witches say about the third prophecy (become King of Scotland.) However, because he already has the idea of become king and plus the witches have told him, his idea becomes stronger and firmer. (Also encourages by Lady Macbeth) And his doubt has eventually becomes believe.
When, Duncan announces that his son will be the next King, I think this is the start that Macbeth has idea of killing Duncan. He becomes worried and starts to think the prophecy will not come true. Therefore, worry will become frustration, and frustration will end up doing dumb thing. And Macbeth did the dumb thing.
I think in real life people have the desire of wanting more power or reputation. Sometimes, we will get greedy and resort all means in order to achieve the goal. For example, the former president of Taiwan, he became greedy of wanting more money and power, so he bribed the government workers and took all the tax money (over 2 billion) and hid it. Eventually, people found out, and he had to face the consequences.
Because of Macbeth’s strong desire, he becomes greedy, and greedy will not think of the consequences.
I agree with you, Stanley. Great, prove. However, I disagree on the idea of killing King Duncan came after the throne. In my perspective, I believe that the thought of killing Duncan has already come beforehand. I say this is because, in Act one scene 4, where he first met the three weird witches, when he confirm that the first two prophecies were true. He considers the third to be true as well. Immediately, a murder scene flashed through his mind. Yet, that image disgusted him, he end up put faith in chance. He believes if chance may crown him, he doesn’t have to lay a finger against the current king. This thought has proven that the plan of killing Duncan wasn’t created by Lady Macbeth, but already exists inside Macbeth’s mind. Also when he heard Duncan is going to let his own son take his place after his death. Instantly, the faith he put in for chance has disappear, his anger has overwhelmed him. Again, that image of murder went through his mind. This shows that he already have the thought of it, but never really appear to him. Macbeth is a man with ambition, a strong man with desire, thus he must already possess some evil ideas in order to gain his power he wanted. Therefore, I state that the idea of Killing Duncan came before.
DeleteAgreeing with Stanley, because MAcbeth obviously wants the throne, who wouldnt after being told that he should be king, but the idea of murdering to achieve that goal only appears after he has been corrupted the witches' emanating malice, at least thats what i think.
DeleteI think Macbeth wanted to be a king way before he met the witches, but he just wanted to be one, as a dream that would never came true. But after he met the witches, his mind changed from "I want to be a king" to "I SHOULD be a king", and that's when the idea of killing comes in. I believe that he wanted to become a king way before, because right after one of the prophecies came true (became the Thane of Cawdor), he already was thinking about how lucky he was and planned to become a king. I still don't think he was planning on killing the king before he became Thane of Cawdor, because he was still debating with his wife on to kill the king or not. Though his thinking process went right to kill the king when he became thane of Cawdor, but I think he was just wanted to become king so bad and wanted it to happen right away.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you Hank that Macbeth had wanted to become king before he met the witches. If he didn’t, then he wouldn’t be so excited when the witches told him, “All hail, Macbeth, hail to thee, Thane of Cawdor!” (Act 1, scene 3). He even instantly thought of killing Duncan to become king when Ross had confirmed that the witches are trustworthy. Probably he had wished to become King as a little kid because he was blood-related to Duncan. However, not as the rightful heir, Macbeth had stopped thinking of this wish and buried it in his mind. Then when the witches’ predicted that his yearning would come true, they awoke his wish and it grew stronger into ambition. As a result, Macbeth started planning how to obtain the crown. My reason for Macbeth to think of murdering Duncan instead of other plans is because as a brave warrior, Macbeth, had showed no mercy to his enemy. And as the prophecy foretold that Macbeth would become king, Duncan had developed into his worst rival. Therefore the only idea Macbeth could consider of is defeating his foe with swords, which mean murdering; although later on, it is his wife that persuaded him to have the gut to kill the king.
DeleteI can not agree with you more Carla. Macbeth had wanted to be a king really badly before he met the witches for sure. I believe it is very hard for him to work under a person because I think it's not part of his personality to follow others. He wants to be the one to lead and wants to be the one that have power. No matter how hard he believed in loyalty he still betrayed the king and kill him at the end. I think he's the kind of person that do things for himself and no one else, no matter how great he was before he killed the king.
DeleteI totally agreed. I don't think he is loyal to the king. I guess his intentions to stay beside the king is for his own good. He probably enjoys the excitement in battlefield when able to defeat his enemies and obtain fame. i believed he is working to gain wealth under Duncan for himself. Therefore, the first plan he thinks for him to get the crown is to kill Duncan. Although he then stops this crazy idea, i guess he is just afraid of Duncan's loyal force, like Macduff and Banquo.
DeleteI think that Macbeth may have had notions of wanting to be King, but not necessarily wanting to kill the Current one to gain the title. As we see when they recieve the message from the hags, Macbeth and Banquo dismiss it as a joke, when normally if you had been planning something, and someone told you that you would be king, you would be suspicious of them, wondering how they knew what you were planning on doing. no trace of suspicion is shown from macbeth,just incredulity as he finds out that yes, he is the thane of Cawdor. Also, When the time came for the king to be killed, he had a lot of feelings holding him back. If one had been planning murder for a long time, I would think that you would have started getting rid of those feelings a while ago.
ReplyDeleteFaiz, i agree with that Macbeth may want to be King, but his mind does not have the idea of killing Duncan yet. However, when he meets those witches, at first he is suspicious about their prophecies, (I agree with you that he is suspicious in the beginning) however, when 2 of the prophecies become true, he begins to doubt. And doubt can be persuaded to believe. With all the supports from his wife and weird sisters, Macbeth starts to have the idea of killing Duncan. I think everyone is eager to be a king, but some people just aren’t using the right method, like Macbeth.
DeleteI believed that Macbeth may have traces of thinking of becoming the King before he met the witches, but it is the witches open him up to the idea of his ambition drives him to make the choices. The witches set him up for believing that “the greatest is behind” (I,iii). Even though we cannot make sure if he had the “vaulting ambition” of becoming King before he met the witches, we are sure that the idea of murder Duncan comes after the witches’ prophecy. He was still in doubt and bit of fear when “whose horrid image doth unfix [his] hair and make [his] seated heart knock at [his] ribs.” The idea of murder Duncan in order to gain title of King comes right after the prophecy of Cawdor came true, but it is set firm after Macbeth hear that Malcolm is the Prince of Cumberland. Perhaps Macbeth thought of murder Duncan as one of the ways becoming the King before he met the witches, but he becomes obsessed with the idea after he met with them and Duncan.
ReplyDeleteI totally agree with you. The witches is the alarm clock that awakes Macbeth's long-sleeping ambition within his mind. He must have been thinking of becoming king himself as youth because of his blood relation with Duncan. However, I doubt that Macbeth has thought of murdering Duncan as one of the ways of becoming the king before he met the witches. If he did, then he will not consider this idea as "horrid image" (Act 1, scene 3). He would agree to kill Duncan without a doubt. Moreover, I believe that the reason why Macbeth would think of killing Duncan is as a brave, merciless warrior, the action of defeating off enemy by killing is the first priority for him.And after the prophecy, Macbeth has clearly saw Duncan as his rival. Therefore, there is nothing wrong when he instantly consider murdering. Yet, being blood-related to Duncan, Macbeth is afraid to destory his own cousin. That's why he later on changed this crazy idea.
DeleteThanks for replying. It seems like his idea of "horrid image" can be interpret in different ways. Some say if he never thought of the murder, how come he thought of it right after the prophecy come true? but some say if he did thought of the murder, how come it is still horrifying for him to think about? The interesting fact about Macbeth is that his moral holds him back from the murder at the beginning of the play, then he lost his grip on things. It is quite contradictory of him, (assuming) if he planned the murder for years but still unable to overcome the fear and guilt afterwards.
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ReplyDeleteI believe Macbeth have always had a desire to become King and even have the idea of killing Duncan even before the witches met him. I feel this because when the witches came to tell him the prophecy, he told them that “Stay, you imperfect speakers, tell me more.” He wants to know more, because he couldn’t believe the words they say, until Ross came in and made him the Thane of Cawder. Then, he was surprise and reveals to us that the witch’s prophecy has made him think, briefly about “murder” but the idea of doing that has revolted him and the feel of guilt about his “horrible Imagining.” Therefore, he says he’s willing to leave things to “chance” – “if chance will have me King, why, chance may crown me without my stir.” He feels that if chance will wants him to be king, then he doesn’t have to lift a finger (against the current king) to make it happen. This shows that his heart already has the confident to gain the position his mind desire. On the other hand, in our reality, everyone have ambition in his heart, it could be either a threat or helpful to us. It could be either a very slight or very big desire of something. As one believes they could success, their ambition will be evoked and will end up leading them to the wrong track. For example, the America car company, “General Moto” was at first selling pretty well. Yet, because of their ambition, confident of themselves, they expand too fast, ended up poor selling. Day by day, their stock were getting too much, their working capital were not going well. As a result, they bankrupt. Similarity to Macbeth, his confident of being the King had made him kill so many innocent citizens. Therefore, I state that he already possess the idea to kill Duncan, however, it was just an impossible idea in his mind. But as the meeting with the witches and his wife scheme about how to kill Duncan, slowly turn his ambition up, which causes him to step on the path of destruction. Also, he was blood related to Duncan, which has possibility to become the King, so this is very big possibility that he has already had the idea to become King.
ReplyDeleteIf he belived that fate would just make it happen if he was destined to become King, then I don't think he had intention of killing Duncan before he met the withces. To obtain the throne, there is other way rather than murdering the current king. I agree that Macbeth had killed a lot of innocent people, but as a warrior, it was his job to protect his own counrtry by fighting and killing the enemies. Of course, this action became unreasonable and unjustified when he had became King and turned his sword toward his own people: Mcduff's family. Overall, I do not think he possessed the idea to kill the king, since he found himself surprised and confused about this idea when it first popped into his mind after meeting with the witches.
DeleteCarey, I totally agree with you. But, I do not believe that Macbeth has the idea of killing Duncan before witches. Let see from his characteristic, he is a coward (“And live a coward…own esteem.”)(I,vii) man that does not have the dare to take action to kill King Duncan. He is encouraged by his wife and the prophecies. Because of his wife attacks his manhood, he forces himself to kill Duncan.
DeleteI agree with you that ambition could be a threat or helpful to us. Sometimes, ambition can help one reach one’s goal and sometimes too much ambition may cause a lot of problems.
Well, even though I don' disagree with you, Stanley, but there is one point I will like to argue with you about. Maybe being cowardly IS one of his traits, but that doesn't mean he never have the idea of killing the king. It is just that he is acting cowardly of turning this idea into actions.
DeleteI believe that the idea of killing Duncan and the desire to become King had popped into Macbeth’s mind for a very long time, probably before the witches met him. Because Macbeth is blood-related to Duncan, the desire to become king must have been within Macbeth’s mind from birth, though there is no evidence in the book to prove this. However, in reality, many kings in history had experienced fights between brothers for crown, even in Shakespeare’s time. Moreover, although this is my own opinion, just right after the witches’ told him “All hail, Macbeth, that shalt be King hereafter!” (Act 1, scene 3), Macbeth had been extraordinarily excited to know more. Also, after hearing Ross proved that the witches were telling the truth of him becoming the thane of Cawdor, Macbeth instantly considered murdering Duncan in order to obtain the crown, “If good, why do I yield to that suggestion whose horrid image doth unfix my hair and make my seated heart knock at my ribs, against the use of nature?” (Act 1, scene 3), and he even tried to convince Banquo to trust the witches. I supposed that the ambition to become king sleeping in Macbeth’s mind was awaken by the witches’ prophecy. And, he thought to kill Duncan, than anything else, because Macbeth is a brave, strong, yet, merciless warrior. He would show no pity towards his enemy, especially in battlefield, “For brave Macbeth—well he deserves that name—disdaining fortune, with his brandished steel, which smoked with bloody execution, like valor’s minion carved out his passage till he faced the slave.” (Act 1, scene 2). From the witches’ foretelling, Macbeth had discovered that Duncan was no more his ally, instead his rival. Therefore, Macbeth can only think of killing Duncan to resolve his obstacle.
ReplyDeleteBefore he met the witches, Macbeth didn't have any desire to be king. I believe this simply because one doesn't usually desire something if it shouldn't happen. Duncan's sons were traditionally supposed to become King next and therefore Macbeth should have accepted the fact that he would've never become king and moved on. Macbeth didn't have the idea of killing Duncan didn't arise until after he found out he wasn't going to be King. Before this he said, "If chance will have me king, then chance will crown me." What he said indicates no desire to murder Duncan.
ReplyDeleteI disagree with that. I think that many people desire things even if they know that it isn't theirs to have or get. Like... lets say.. American Idol! Crappy singers, that probably know that they are crappy go on just because they want to be the American Idol. It's nowhere near rightfully there's to have which is why they don't win. But with Macbeth, the king would be the American Idol and Macbeth wants to be it. He knows he can't have it so he devises a plan to kill him and take it from him. Once he becomes Thane of Cawdor he thinks he is of enough power and then ON TOP of that, the witches are all like "you will be king" and stuff so he says: "hey, lets kill Duncan now!" So he does. Just how I see it.
DeleteYes, one doesn't usually desire something if it shouldn't happen, but that is just "usually". In fact, it is in a man's intrinsic nature to hold great carvings for what he once failed to acquire or had never obtained. Because you don't own it, it is more likely that you will want to try and set yourself a challenge to see if you can get to your goal. Plus, in the play, Macbeth has earned his fame and success through hard-working and skills, it is fair for him to desire more power, a higher position, and moreover, to become King.
DeleteThank you Brent!
DeleteAnd I don't see how American Idol has anything to do with is.
When you audition you have a CHANCE to win. You aren't replacing a king, as you said they are going on just for the sake of going on.
Macbeth can't try out for king and get voted on and th king stepped down.
In the day and age it was set, honor was a huge thing. Honor and loyalty, not everyone goes against that.
Macbeth wouldn't have desired something that he shouldn't have. He would have been proud of what he already did.
Yes, perhaps the thought of becoming king may have passed through once in awhile. But I don't believe that the desire to become king was to the point where he thought of killing him. It would have been a hopeless dream, since Duncan had TWO sons as well.
In this play, without having to discuss it at all, Macbeth and Lady Macbeth had already known the plan of what to do to kill Duncan. They hadn't talked about it that we know of at all, and they both have a good idea of what is going to happen. Macbeth becomes Thane of Cawdor and him and his wife, knowing what the witches said, waste no more time in the execution of King Duncan. They don't have to discuss it at all that is until Macbeth starts to have second thoughts about it. Which probably means that he had thought about it prior and now that it is actually happening to him, he decides that it wouldn't be smart. He wasn't going to do it until Lady Macbeth comes and tells him that he promised (which was never said in the book so he must have said it ahead of time) he would kill Duncan to become the king. So she manipulates him until he says he will do it. Another point I would like to make is that Duncan is Macbeths cousin. So they already knew each other and Macbeth very well could have thought, prior to the time the play takes place, that if he killed him he would become king. But then realized his kids would be the rightful heirs to the throne, so he had to make it so that they would run away or make it look like they killed him. Which he succeeded in. Furthermore, once Macbeth became Thane of Cawdor he realized that he was in control of enough power that if the framed Duncan's kids he would become king.
ReplyDeleteYes, I agree with your points. He was close to the King, as he was his subject and cousin. Having someone close to you with that much power would tempt most people. I believe Macbeth desired being king at some point in his life and thought about possible strategies to attain that position. His desire and ambition to be king caused him to think about murder. Also, after his encounter with the witches, Macbeth immediately sends a letter to his wife. Nowhere in the letter does it mention the idea of murdering Duncan, yet Lady Macbeth jumps to the conclusion that that is what Macbeth is implying. Judging by their relationship, it is likely that Macbeth and Lady Macbeth discussed murdering Duncan before. It also seems to be common knowledge between them that Macbeth wants to be King. When Macbeth returns home to Lady Macbeth, he mentions that ‘Duncan comes here tonight’ and her reaction is to reveal that she is planning something (I.v). He does not question her or ask what she is planning which causes the reader to assume that they have thought about murdering Duncan before to become king.
DeleteI completly agree with jeremy on his point as he agreed with me there is no way that such a complex plan could have been thought up in the short time that lady macbeth and macbeth had together theres just no way
DeleteBut they didn't discuss it because as soon as his wife found out, SHE began scheming.
DeleteMacbeth said to her they will discuss it later. And when that king he said he would wait for chance to crown him.
Nowhere does it ever mention that they were planning to kill Duncan prior to where we started in the play.
I believe the idea did not pop into his head, every man desires greater power when within the presecence, or within reach or association of greater powers. It is when Macbeth begins to believe that higher level powers are predetermining his fate that his zeal and hungry ambition overcomes and clouds his (any man's) ration and caution. It is also why in the false counsel of the witches he finds his false security from prophecy, and with that undue and irrationally based courage he ultimately meets his downfall.
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